Home » Paul Sellers’ Blog » Shame On You Two Cherries, Shame On YOU!

Shame On You Two Cherries, Shame On YOU!

This week I picked up a brand new gent’s saw straight from the pack made by the famous German tool makers Two Cherries. I noticed the unusual tooth shape, which strangely resembled the edge of a tin can when we used to open it with a multipurpose survival knife. I wondered how it would work and whether it was just a miscut. I examined several others  and realised it was actually intensional as they were indeed manufactured that way. I offered the saw to the wood and the very middle cut with the dovetailed angle and the broken off section was the results of ten strokes. Could this truly be the end product of the once highly acclaimed Two Cherries of German tool manufacturing? I looked at the packet and, well, there it was; Made in Germany. So here is my perspective on the saw. Nice beechwood handle–nicely shaped (but it is unfinished), nice brass back, good quality steel plate, not too soft, not too hard. Two Cherries, the materials leave you no excuse for making such a poor grade product. YOU should be very ASHAMED of your product and yourselves. It is the very worst saw of any and all saws ever, ever, ever manufactured. I have never seen anything worse. Just my view.

The long saw cut on the left (top pic) is how the saw cuts by a man who has used such saws every day, six days a week for 53 years. The two long cuts to the right of it are how it cuts after sharpening and redefining the teeth. Also, when any company has to put Professional Quality on a product you should see that as a red flag that something is wrong.

I don’t know who is responsible for manufacturing the saw but the person should be sacked. I don’t know who buys the saw for distribution worldwide but they too should be sacked!

If you bought this saw and you thought the outcome was a result of your inexperience. It’s not. Blame the tool maker. It’s his pure arrogance to think he can pass something off to you like this and call it a dovetail saw. Shame on you Two Cherries, shame on you!

 

55 comments

  1. Matthew says:

    You’re right Paul, an amateur like myself would assume it was me that was at fault. One buys known quality brands assuming they’re going to be right out of the packet. It is a crying shame 😣

  2. Chris says:

    I bought a marking gauge just for the heck of it from veritas. It was pitiful . The wedge didn’t hold , the head rocked back and forwards with the wedge fully locked down. The beam was too small for the mortise and it was very thin. Although veritas didn’t make the marking gauge I feel that they shouldn’t sell it either. Also I bought a 6″ compass it was made in France. The locking screw was stripped and bent. In addition I bought a 8″ white grinding wheel. It was warped. I balance my wheels with the oneway balancing system so after balancing the wheel I installed it and I thought it was going to come apart when I turned on the grinder. They said they were special made just for them by Norton and this was the first time they ever had a complaint about them. I’ve bought several Norton grinding wheels over the years and this is only the second one that was warped . I’m afraid this is where we are today. No wonder so many beginners get frustrated and quit. I think I’ll stick to my old vintage tools. And my best marking gauge is one that I made from QSWO. If I were a retailer I would be embarrassed by what’s being produced today. I would sell quality or nothing at all. Thanks for sharing this story that will be one less mistake I make. Lol.

    • Charlie Hubbard says:

      Was that the Crown marking gauge by any chance? I bought a marking gauge from Veratas (actually from Lee-Valley) made by Crown and it was AWFUL! it had many (or all) of the shortcoming you describe. Total waste of money. I ended up throwing it away.

      I will say though, I own a wheel-type marking gauge that is actually manufactured by Veratas, and a Veratas wheel-type mortising gauge, and I LOVE them. I’m thinking of getting a second of their marking gauges. If you were to get one, I would recommend the one with the “micro adjustment” option. Seemed like a gimmick, but I got it anyway. Not a gimmick! I use that feature all the time! I love that feature.

      What is QSWO?

      • Peter Prop says:

        I made a wheel marking gauge from a cotton reel, an old router guide bar and a replacement cutting wheel off a tile cutter, it works wonderfully and cost nothing.

      • Chris says:

        hey charlie, I do have all of the wheel type marking gauges that veritas makes and also the Glenn Drake ones as well. I like them fine and use them on occasions . Over the years Ive been partial to wood on wood and best of all for me, are the wedge type. I find them easier to make adjustments without ever having to set the board down. Using my one hand by just taping it on the bench either way to adjust the distance and then just lightly taping the wedge on the bench as well while still using my other hand for something else. Thats why I like these so much. The one I bought from Veritas was the Japanese Marking gauge not the mortise double beam one just the plain on that uses a wedge to lock the head to the beam. I was just more curious than anything else. Curious to see the quality. It like the crown is really junk. I collect tools so I have so many marking gauges its not even funny. and still I prefer to use the one I made. In fact I think that us woodworkers should make as many of our own tools by hand as we can. Like the Turn saw, Bow saw, Beam saw what ever you care to call it. Paul did a video on one but his was more of the larger Bow saw type. Tools for working wood sells a kit to make your own turn saws I made a few and I really love them. You just need to select your wood carefully for weight and balance. Again I used QSWO for one, Apple for another and Boxwood for the third one. Its amazing to me how much difference just the wood will make in function. The wedge type marking gauges are easy to make and really much better than you find today out there in the market. And I’m not paying $575.00 for a Marking gauge I’m sorry but that’s just ridiculous, Not knocking the gentleman who’s making and selling them more power to him and I hope he sells more than he can make just for me I don’t have that kind of mad money. I would be divorced right away no time for explanations , Lol. QSWO is Quarter Sawn White Oak.

  3. Todd says:

    Thanks Paul it’s sad when manufacturers put profit above simply making quality tools they can be proud of and last a lifetime. It turns my stomach upside down that a company like this is so greedy they don’t care what they sell it’s sad to see I hope they bounce back and get better if not it’s a boycott for company that wants to sell rubish!

  4. Thomas Hanson says:

    Two Cherries is one of the most prestigious brand names in woodworking. Their chisels are out of my price range, and to get this review from one of their saws is almost unthinkable.
    I’d love to be a fly on the wall in the boardroom this morning after the most famous woodworker in the world has trashed your gent saw, with cause extreme.
    I’m glad I started buying Bad Axe saws! Try this experiment with one of their saws! The outcome will be very different.

    • Paul Sellers says:

      I doubt this will make any difference. I picture two or three smart Alecks there chatting back and forth and saying, Can you believe this Paul Sellers has the effrontery to challenge one of our high spec tools like this? Who does he think he is?
      Imagine being proud of making the very worst saw in the world with all of technology, name and background they have to to work with!

      • Gordon says:

        Paul – as an educational point for us; could you describe what it is that’s been done incorrectly with this saw (e.g. a manufacturing process flaw, an incorrect choice of tooth shape etc)?

        You say you’ve sharpened and redefined the teeth; but for those of us light on experience, we probably wouldn’t be able to pinpoint exactly what was wrong, and what changes to make – hence a description of the problem itself would be useful.

        • Seb says:

          @Gordon, you can read a 5 years old related post about 2 kirchen saw at the bottom of the article. You’ll see what a tooth shape should look like (or you can check the severals articles/videos about saw sharpening).

      • Chris says:

        Ha ha Ha, That’s funny Paul and sadly I would have to agree with you.
        I don’t thing two cherries gives a darn,” who” thinks what. If they did then they never would have made it in the first place.. Mass producing items like these are done for one reason, and one reason only ” Money Honey” They already know that only a very small percentage of people return the product and that number has already been calculated into the equation before they ever start production. Sad but True. We can make our own saws. Can’t We????

    • Juan M. says:

      Two Cherries bench chisels were mentioned. I’ve been told by someone who owns a set that the backs are rounded quite a bit from side to side. This is the result of the overzealous polishing job they give them at the factory. Can you imagine a chisel that you can actually rock side to side a little bit while paring with it? I would never buy any of their chisels. Gouges are another story; that polish sure feels and looks great on my Hirsch gouge.

  5. Mario Fusaro says:

    Take heart, Paul as yours is not the first displeasing review of this saw I’ve read. It seems that the once prided workmanship of [he German manufacturing has become a thing of the past. From cars to clocks and now tools, craftsmanship has taken a back seat to profit in this once fine country. Being of German heritage, grandfather an engineer for the Benz Corporation circa 1921, I know that once, German workmanship was excellent. Too bad pride has become a lost commodity in today’s world.

      • Anthony says:

        Depends on the American. I started woodworking to bring back quality furniture that does not have to be tightened everything 2 months, or costs 5,000 for something nice. Quality AND affordable is gone. But, at least with me, quality and affordable is coming back.

  6. IOANNIS DOUNIS says:

    I’ve had the same experience with this specific saw from two cherries
    (KIRSCHEN) the teeth geometry is so bad and they come with almost 1mm of set :D. i sat down and almost erased the teeth and cut new ones and also reset the set and hammer set it to perfection with the expert instructions of Mr. Sellers before it was usable.Now its ready for the finest work :).

    • Michael Ballinger says:

      Taking control – good man yourself! It’s great that you developed the skills to do that; but a shame that you had to do it to the saw in the first place.

      • IOANNIS DOUNIS says:

        Thank you, it’s really a shame buying any tool and having to do what the maker is responsible to do yourself, i feel that these saws are something like a saw blank, they should write “Professional quality after three hours of tuning” on them :D.

  7. Greg Glendy says:

    This was the first saw I bought when I started a few years ago. I was so discouraged with myself for not being able to cut a straight line. I thought for sure it was the fault of mine as Two Cherries was such a well known brand. After I bought a Pax saw, I realized I wasn’t as bad as I thought. Thank you for sharing this. Hopefully it will prevent others from becoming as disappointed and discouraged as I.

  8. Richard says:

    “24 June 2017 at 11:38 am
    Chris says:

    I bought a marking gauge just for the heck of it from veritas. It was pitiful . The wedge didn’t hold , the head rocked back and forwards with the wedge fully locked down. The beam was too small for the mortise and it was very thin. Although veritas didn’t make the marking gauge I feel that they shouldn’t sell it either. ”

    Did you return it? I hope you have and let Lee Valley (it offers free return shipping) know about how you felt about that marking gauge. It could be an isolated product mishap or a manufacturing issue, but either way, Lee Valley is known to be responsive and will get to the root of your dissatisfaction.

    • Chris says:

      Hey Richard, I just got through talking to them about the warped *’ grinding wheel and that compass that had the stripped out locking screw. So I gave customer service a break on the marking gauge . However I did write down how I felt and put it in the box and it will go back Monday. I like Veritas they have always been nice so I’m not wanting to slam them more so just the marking gauge. It was the Japanese one with the wedge lock.
      I bought a japanese one from Highland years ago and it was ten times better than this one. except its not the wedge type. I like the wedge type because its easier to make adjustments on the run with one hand. Its okay no big deal but your right they should and do need to know about this, my only issue with that is, how could they not know. Anybody with just a little common sense could see that. So what good would come from me wasting my time again complaining to them. So I felt more compelled to tell my fellow woodworkers.

  9. Frank Kras says:

    Thanks you very much – I just removed it from my wish list!
    Can you recommend one or more lower cost dovetail saw that can be resharpened but doesn’t cost a fortune?
    I may have to pony up for the Veritas..

    • Eric Knapp says:

      I just got the Veritas dovetail saw. I think it is probably the least expensive of the quality new saws. It’s working so well I also got their crosscut carcass saw. My first dovetail saw was not good but I didn’t know it. I was very discouraged for a long time. Paul’s concern about this is very real. Thank you, good sir, for speaking up about this.

  10. Tom Angle says:

    “Also, when any company has to put Professional Quality on a product you should see that as a red flag that something is wrong.”

    Amen to that.

  11. Ed says:

    I’ve avoided Two Cherries for a decade or more once I read complaints that they polish their chisels without caring that the critical edges on the back get rounded over thus making the tool difficult to flatten. I was a complete beginner at the time, looking for my first chisels. Honestly, I never even looked at them because this practice, if true, spoke of a manufacturer that cared more about appearance than proper tools. There were other options, so I crossed them off my list and looked elsewhere.

  12. Steve says:

    This is just one more example of poor modern standards.
    I will continue to buy old tools that were made in an age where high quality could be assured. Far more rewarding and instructive to buy an old tool. By the time it has been cleaned and sharpened you will know that tool inside out, and it will give more pleasure in use than its modern equivalent.
    Thankyou Paul for your invaluable advice and instruction.

  13. Stephen Roberts says:

    Fortunately I just bought one I have not used it yet but have taken the coating off the blade so returning it is out of the question. So is buying another brand due to limited funds. So what am I to do now is there away to fix this with out having to report it?

    • Michael Ballinger says:

      Why is returning it out if the question? Cut a couple lines in a piece of timber photograph it and email their customer support stating that it is not fit for purpose. Don’t bother mentioning the coating, it’s irrelevant. Get a refund and purchase from another maker.

      • Stephen Roberts. says:

        You make a valid point but wondering if time mite play into it also. It’s been since may that I have had it. I will contact them but may be stuck with it. If this is the case then I want to be able to fix it and use it.

  14. chris says:

    Stephen – search this site using the tag “saw sharpening” and invest (if you have not already) in a triangular saw file and a mill bastard file. Only way to make the saw usable it seems is to re-cut or re-profile the teeth in their entirety.

    Consumers running into “tool shaped objects” is rampant and only seems to be remedied by retailers when enough bad press gets sent their way. Complaining LOUDLY can work, it just takes a critical mass of individuals to say enough is enough and stop parting with their hard earned cash. Any retail company can have one or two items in their catalog that slip through that are sub-par, but when they know it and still promote it – that is the time I stop purchasing anything from them.

  15. Dave J says:

    I think most of us have to take the blame for some of the quality issues. I have a hard time justifying the purchase of a $300 saw, so I go shopping for a saw I think is prudent on my budget & end up with less than desired results. I imagine when Paul bought his tools of the trade they were expensive in raltionship to what he was being paid. Are we expecting that quality of tools at a price that is not commensurate with inflation? I know many buy used, but that does nothing to support the industry to build quality tools for the future. I know there are other factors that weigh into why quality has gone down, but I also haven’t run to buy a quality $300 dovetail saw either. I worked most of my life in heavy industry. I watched as managers beat the price down for bids for materials & equipment. The ultimate result was suppliers learned to build things to the lowest end of the specs. That is to say if a machine was required to produce 80 tons an hour, they went to great effort to make sure that it won’t produce any more than the 80 tons an hour. I saw this first hand & in some cases the engineers admitted to doing it. If you want quality it generally costs more. I just wish I had the expertise to critic my own tools to determine if it was my fault or a cheap tool. I would love to have a shop full of all the high quality tools that Veritas, Lee Nielsen & others make, but they are not within my budget & I would lose some of the nostalgia attached to some of my tools. I try to buy used, but unless you know which tools were good tools when they were new, you still can end up with someone elses junk. i feel like I need to be up on which tool was made, when & where it was made, and was it a poor user even back then. I’m retired & I want to spend my useful years making things, not trying to out smart a tool manufacturer or some 3rd party on EBay. As always, thanks Paul for watching out for us, it is appreciated.

  16. Peter says:

    As this posting has broadened into a general complaint about modern tools, I would like to ask for comments regarding hacksaw blades.
    I seem to have ended up with those ‘toothless wonders’ which hardly cut at all and am looking to buy some quality blades for both the standard-sized hacksaw and the ‘junior’ hacksaw (a tool which seems particularly prone to be of little use.)
    Does anyone have any suggestions?
    So far as the ‘2 Cherries’ saw is concerned, I am reminded of that appalling STANLEY 12-404 NO. 4 ADJUSTABLE BENCH PLANE – a ‘plane-shaped object’ if ever there was one.
    Let’s all share the news about these dreadful products. *Then* it might get back to the manufacturers and hit them where it hurts.

    • Philipp J. says:

      Peter for good hacksaw blades i have good experiences with the Sandvik (Bahco) Bi-Metall blades. Cut great even in Toolsteel and seem to last aswell.

  17. Dave J says:

    While we are on the subject of quality tools I have a few questions. I bought a new set of what i would call medium to low priced chisels. They feel really good in my hands & I like using them. That being said my first attempt at hogging out a mortises I broke the end off of my 1/2″
    Chisel. I was in the first part of the process, so my leverage on the tool was not what I would call excessive. I was made painfully aware that maybe I either got a bad chisel or that maybe I needed to do better research on chisels. I have since become a fan of Paul’s, but the buys he seems to come accross seem
    to allude me. I watched ebay incessentntly for a used set of quality chisels only to find over priced remnants of the past. I found a distributor in the US for British made Ashley Isles chisels. These were a good chisel by some accounts, but does
    anyone know what their current chisels are like? They are considerably less than the high end chisels. I would like a quality affordable set that would eventually end up in one of my grandsons tool collection. Any comments from any of you, especially my friends from GB.

    • Paul Sellers says:

      It has become more problematic. The only chisels I ever saw snap were indeed Ashley Illes and Narex. I have used vintage Marples and Ward chisels for 50 years and never seen one snap, ever. Since I began blogging secondhand tool prices have risen markedly, even to the point with some where the price even matches those of say Veritas (in the case if router planes). You just need to keep looking.

  18. Philipp J. says:

    I have heard from quite a few people, mostly germans, that the quality of Kirschen (two cherries) isnt what it used to be, didnt think it was that bad though.
    Seems good saws are ever harder to come by witout spending a fortune, from the germans Ulmia still makes good ones to my Knowledge.
    As for Chisels here in Austria its all Stubai, and they are good quality for a reasonable price in my opinion.

  19. Paul L Dallender says:

    Poor quality it seems is becoming more common in this so called ‘throw away’ society even it seems with goods that have the word ‘professional’ in their description. But what is even more sad is that companies as old and established as Wilhelm Schmitt & Co who make 2 Cherries seem to be less concerned about their reputation than the generation that started the company.

    Having said that, it is also our responsibility as consumers to let them know when things aren’t right and people actually returning the goods stating what the issue is and demanding their hard earned cash back might also make them sit up and think.

    2 Cherries may well think ‘Can you believe this Paul Sellers has the effrontery to challenge one of our high spec tools like this? Who does he think he is?’ But if they had any sense they would look at who Paul Sellers actually is what he does and above all the reputation he has around the world (including their own country) within the woodworking fraternity. I’m sure one of their fellow German companies Aldi were chuffed to bits to see how one of their products sales (chisels) have benefited by the very same man’s opinion (even if not officially) being voiced.

    Short sighted, complacent, indifferent, apathetic or simply showing arrogance and conceit for their customers? Whichever, they should be told. You are right Paul ‘Ashamed’ is exactly how they should feel and I bet those who originally started the company in 1858 would be spinning in their graves.

    • Paul Sellers says:

      None of them are sharp as such but that is not the whole. They simply punched out a shape on a machine and left the rough edges. No refinement at all. Very, very bad. No company can deal this way if they have any moral ethic and integrity. I don’t know how to state it more plainly, really.

    • Paul Sellers says:

      It could but it’s not really. I would like to have thought this was just one bad saw in the batch the company has been producing this model to the same low specs for five years. This reminds me of the VW diesel scandal really. And we know other makers dod the same but we trusted the VW name. Two Cherries–thumbs down here.

  20. Harry says:

    Yeah, but it’s “Professional Quality” – says so right on the blade! I bought a Husky mitre back saw at Home Depot with teeth like that for about six bucks – actually, it works pretty good – much better than this one does. Maybe I can just write “Professional Quality” on that one with a Sharpie!

  21. Anthony says:

    Hi Paul, I need a timber framers skill saw. But before I spent $900 on a Makita power tool, I picked up two hand saws at home depot, Made in USA, http://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-20-in-Handsaw-DWHT20545L/202985582
    http://www.homedepot.com/p/Stanley-10-in-Fine-Finish-Mini-Utility-Saw-20-221/100654910

    I am building a big cabinet maker/furniture/timberframers work bench : )
    to accommodate a 6′ Moxon Vise I build this year.
    If you have time, would you please take a look at these hand saws ? Maybe offer a review. I’m cutting 5/4 and 8/4 Poplar 3″ to 8″ wide boards, laminated together. 5 Pieces roughly 5 1/4″ to 10″ wide.
    Thank You

    I love going for the hand tools vs a power tool,
    Keep Sharing You Expertise Sir !
    Greatly Appreciated

    • Paul Sellers says:

      These are just big box company takes on already available hard point push or pull stroke saws that are throwaways. Nothing I would look at but they will cut for a while

  22. Mary says:

    We are the US importer of Two Cherries – I have sent your article to Germany for review and I will post any comments from them. Mary

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