Disston 18″ saws
Look for any handsaw anywhere you like, new or secondhand, and the most common length is around 22″ with others going up to 26″ and very few less than the 22″ I mention. In my daily use, I still rely on the Spear & Jackson I have recommended over recent years. It takes and holds a good cutting edge, costs peanuts to buy new, and requires only five minutes to get it to work like the best of premium saws. V+Conver the handle as I have and you have a winner destined to work for a lifetime of comfort and functionality.
I am never sure why so few short handsaws exist in the world but this reality makes them more collectible and I have gathered together several 16″ rarities and own some less and some a little longer. I don’t follow them on eBay but occasionally I will glimpse one that draws my eye. You become conditioned to spy them out. In my case, it is mostly the Disston shorts I have always loved the most, the ones they made with oak handles. I recently saw a cluster of three saws, all Disstons, offered with a low-grade picture on eBay. My eye caught first the colour of the handle and then the shape. But what drew my eye the most was the length compared to the other two. With no close-ups and minimal description, I went into the purchase blind and followed my gut feeling. I was buying something less than 20″ long, or was I? I posted a sniper bid of £27 for the three saws and home to me they came a few days later. I was very happy that the saw was a scarcer 18″ Disston with the oak handle and there was no pitting in the plate.
The saw seemed to have been dropped on the horn and there was some minor cracking in the handle. I have learned to really value superglue for repair work on many things. It’s an amazing glue that can also be used as a filler and it is very permanent. the saw handle with the damaged horn is very uncomfortable on any saw and will readily cause a sore spot on your hand if not corrected. The horn was almost complete but fractured. Adding thin superglue first permeates the loose fibres and wicks all the way in because of its thin viscosity. I drizzled in a few drops and left it to do its job.
Next, I added sawdust to the wet surface and the reaction between the glue and the sawdust sets up rapidly. Repeating the process builds up the surface level in several applications until it came above the surrounding level, allowing me to rasp the shape I need for a continuous surface. My handle was ready for filing, scraping and sanding. I can colour the finished shape so that the repair disappears but I for now I will leave it.
The saw teeth, 10-point, are well shaped but well worn and past their use-by date. I topped them with a flat file and then filed them to a semi-crosscut pattern so that it will work well as a rip- and a cross-cut saw. I cleaned off the grime of a few decades of unused and then oiled the plate.
I cleaned off the handle and waxed it with furniture polish. Now it feels like a well-loved saw.
You will see me using this saw into the future and I am looking forward to this.
“then filed them to a semi-crosscut pattern so that it will work well as a rip- and a cross-cut saw.”
Is there a link to how this is done?… I have done a search, unsuccessfully!
Thanks,
Matt
No, I haven’t covered this yet, Matt.
Thanks Paul. I look forward to it!
Matt
Can’t be rocket science? File a rip cut, then go over again to file a gentle cross cut, then set at 10 to 12?
If you’ve never done or seen it done, I’d say yes it may as well be rocket science!
Disston No 7, great saw! Thanks for sharing, would really like to know more about this type of filing you put on the teeth….best wishes
A few weeks back I bought one of those cheap spear and jackson saws, I shortened the blade 2 or 3 inches and I made my own handle, almost identical to that disston. Then I filed for rip cut, so the saw is really very similar to yours, just brand new. All by the way thanks to your teaching. Then I realised that the handle gives the hand a different angle to the blade than I’m used to and to the original one, more acute, so it gives a different action, which I somehow need to get used to. Have you noticed this? If so why these different angles?
The blade of the spear and jackson is by the way a bit thicker than it was a few years back, a pity in my view.
Paul, in your opinion, what’s the benefit of an 18” saw over the longer saws?
And what’s the benefit of the hybrid file?
Thanks!
For me, it is bench work and storage. When in a vise at the bench the 26″ standard panel saw is just a bit to much sometimes. The short 18in is much easier to start and control initially. When I am using making a portable tool box it is lot nice to to only have to accomadate an 18″ saw, especailly if it is for a tool tote target at doing house repair or fitting work in a house.
Hi,
bought my Spear & Jackson in 61 cm (about 24″ … I guess it is the 26″ (including the handle))
I bought them because mr. Seller is not only recommending them, he uses them in his youtubes … If someone with his experience is using a tool … either he is to stubborn to go to a better one – or the tool is at least good enough to do the job in a way something “better” is primarily more expensive.
I bought – caused by the price 2 of them – one for rip and one for crosscut – … and … because I never ever sharpened a saw bevore in my life – so if I destroy during the learningcurve one – I still have one survivor …
sharpening a saw … is extremly simple. There is more or less no way to go wrong – and the process is fast … I thought … okeyy so many teath – that will take time – is nervewracking and nothing I am going to do often … I was wrong … I had to do it two or three times, since I own them – it is as easy that I really don’t know, why it is so unknown that it is even possible.
The length – I don’t know – I don’t have a short one – and never tried one – since I do use them also on sawhorses I don’t mind the extra teath. The toolbox is still a scetch-up-drawing – so I can adjust them – I don’t know why but I don’t like the idea to cut them down, to have a shorter toolbox …
It’s also of benefit to short people with shorter arms. We can’t usefully deploy a 26″/660mm stoke if working arm is barely that long. Much akin to selecting garments that fit well [if any] or work benches that work with one.
Hi Naomi,
that’s so true … nothing is more important than to have tools wich fit to youre body-requirements … I’m lefthanded – so I know that as well 😉
A recent flea market find was a circa 1920, full-depth 18-inch William Enders Oak Leaf handsaw filed 9-point rip. I bought it because I thought the size would be convenient for a variety of tasks around the bench, but, as you’d expect, it’ll only rip. All of this is to cast another vote for a video on the semicrosscut pattern, which I hope will make my new-old saw far more useful. When it comes to this pattern, Bad Axe Tool Works calls for 10-degree rake and 12.5-degree fleam (Come on … are they really filing at .5-degree tolerances!), but I’d love to hear Paul’s take, which is always sensible, methodical, doable and grounded in experience. Thanks!
Amen to that last sentence! The last half of it in particular. Half a degree is a lot of bulls$#t.
In engineering half a degree is a big tolerance compared to some extremely accurate work that can call for a tolerance of a minute or second of a degree. But for sharpening a handsaw ?…Yeah Right!!!
I bought an eight dollar saw that is eighteen inches long, that I refilled to ten t.p.i. rip and it does either rip or crosscut. It does rip better, but will crosscut okay. Funny saw in that he screws that hold handle has a steel plate between them and handle and a nib, so it is kind of old. If I use it on saw stop it doesn’t even tear out the bottom of cut. It is fill at approx 10 degree rake. I too am interested in Paul’s filing method.
Half a degree is so well and good until you sharpen it yourself one time.
After watching Paul’s saw sharpening videos, I was keen to have a go at re-toothing a saw. I had an Irwin “Jack” saw knocking about in my garage…a saw bought to shorten some timber to get it into my car. It had an 18” blade with impulse hardened teeth and an odd filing pattern, more like a Japanese saw. Long story short, I cut off the teeth and re-toothed it to 11 ppi with the Bad Axe hybrid filing. I also replaced the horrible plastic handle. A lot of work for a piece of junk saw? Probably, but I learned a lot and I have a very useful little toolbox saw that will rip and cross cut tolerably well.
ps. I used a Veritas saw sharpening guide to get the angles reasonably consistent.
What I’m curious about is for years Paul’s been saying saws 10ppi and more traditionally were just filed rip and they worked fine for crosscut, so now I’m curious what the reason is for the hybrid.
Nothing’s changed. Just many ways to sharpen saws.
I guess what I’m interested in finding out is how difficult and/or practical would it be to scribe then snap off a longer saw blade as opposed to just purchasing the shorter blade. I know several people like to snap old blades apart to make cabinet scrapers so why not snap longer blades to make shorter blades?
I did just this with an Atkins 8 tpi crosscut saw I picked up for a few bucks. Evidently it had been stored in a bucket with water in the bottom, and 4″ of toe was heavily rusted and pitted. I just removed it, refiled the teeth and it works a charm.
It makes no sense to snap down a saw plate for a scraper. Why would anyone do such a thing?
I’m afraid to say; I’ve made many scrapers from damaged saw plates. What can you do with a 26″ 3PTI rip saw with three broken teeth… re-cutting would be uneconomical. With a diamond coated Dremel cut-off blade; scoring to pre-marked lines and snapping off in vice, it’s surprising how quick you can make them. I’ve also made blades for the No.80 Scraper.
Well, I suppose sometimes poverty can be the mother of invention..maybe the evil stepmother.. Who knows? Anyway, just a thought. It’s not as if scrapers are super expensive, but Paul, you do have a poor man’s section.. I started off with almost nothing and had to start over from scratch a few times in my life. Not too many years ago I was down to just a mere cheap screwdriver to my name.
I guess we can just keep justifying silly things with what we see as reason as long as it’s free and easy to do. I doubt I would hear any of this if someone had to go buy an envelope and paper and sit down and write their response before buying a postage stamp to mail it and then wait a few days for delivery. Especially as this conversation has zero value. Oh, and my ‘poor-man’s’ tools were an answer for those who needed a much more substantive and expensive a tool than a £3 card scraper. A paint scraper (three for pound) from a Pound-stretcher store will make a decent scraper.
I’m seriously shocked by the thought you would cut a restorable vintage saw of a respectable British or US maker of old into pieces for scrapers. My offer to you instead is to send it to me (Switzerland), I’ll cover the postage and send you a set of 3 brand new scrapers in return, all for free.
So, what’s the source of your information that I said this, Tobias? of course, I never said it so tell me your source.
“You” was intended to reply to the posts of Marty, Alec and Chuck, referring to cutting old blades apart. I have followed your blog for years, Paul, and would not not even consider you personally to make an April’s fool joke on the matter.
I have so far auctioned 6 back, tenon and panel saws between early 19th to mid 20th century, carefully restaurated them following your excellent guidance and am happy and a little proud to say I am using them all in my woodworking, working like a charm. And wonderful to look at, too.
It worries me anyone would think of them as ‘scrap’er material.
This was my intention behind the offer, and I stand to it.
Overlooking the superciliousness; the question still remains: What does one do with a 26″ Rip Saw with three teeth missing (or even a worn modern hard point), and bear in mind if the answer is restored, you’ve got to factor in the (total or near total) wear of a ‘topping’ and saw file, as well as the investment in time, together with the (flawed) assumption that the handle and brassware are all fit for purpose. Why is it assumed that the pleasure derived from making in wood, can’t also be extended to a metalwork session?
Three teeth missing is of no consequence unless they are all missing together in the centre of the length of the saw so no need to take 200 or more saw teeth down for the sake of three. An odd missing tooth makes little if any difference to functionality. Ignore it/them and they will emerge with each subsequent sharpening although this can take a few years. Hardpoint saws are not saws I deal with. I own a couple for yard work and rough crosscutting of my wood as it comes in. they usually last a couple or three years and the metal and plastic are all recyclable and that is where they go. A card scraper lasts for a lifetime of a full-time user like myself so how many I need is arbitrary. I certainly have no value in making one from a no longer usable saw plate as they are unpredictable as to functionality, edge retention and indeed even taking an edge in the first place.
And where did this come from, “Why is it assumed that the pleasure derived from making in wood, can’t also be extended to a metalwork session?”. Who assumes such a thing?
To answer your question Marty, it is fairly easy to cut/snap/saw a longer blade to make a shorter blade, the question would be why! I have to admit, I prefer a longer saw as I don’t have a bandsaw to make long rips and I like the balance and length of stroke. The shorter handsaw seems perfect for shorter cuts, where a tenon saw doesn’t have the depth but you want the finish of the higher TPI. In short, I’d buy both rather than either/or, so there should be no need to snap a blade on a very usable existing saw. In terms of snapping a blade, I have done it on a hardpoint saw before. Not for a card scraper though, I attached it to a block of wood and used it as a planing stop. Worked great.
North American equivalent to Spear & Jackson i.e. cheap hand saw that comes up decent with similar work as was done to Spear & Jackson. Thank you.
I’m fortunate to live in a place where old Disston and Atkins panel saws are readily available. Since I started converting my workflow to hand tools, I have acquired a selection of nice old panel saws and paid no more than $8 USD for any of them. Basically any junk/antique shop you enter in New England will have a bucket full of them somewhere inside. If only backsaws were as readily available!
Paul,
In the early ’70s I bought an 18″, 11pti Craftsman handsaw, used. The men I worked with at that time called a panel saw. It was the perfect size to keep in my portable workbench that I took with me to jobsites. Although the saw plate says Craftsman, with Special Steel above it, I believe it was actually manufactured by Disston, who made saws for Sears back then.
Are you familiar with that brand of handsaw?
We need more Paul Sellers in this world. I have learned scads from him. And now I know about super glue and sawdust for horn repairs. Oh and that we get to potentially look forward to a new saw sharpening.
Hello Paul,
I have a lovely old little saw with a 18 inch blade I inherited. The heel is marked 7 PTS – is this the tooth count and a general purpose saw ?
Well done, what a nice find. 7 PTS equals seven points per inch of saw length. 7 teeth is quite big for a shorter saw, suggesting it as a ripsaw though you can sharpen it as a crosscut saw if you feel the need for a larger toothed saw.
Continue to follow your blog and videos, and your books is fantastic! I’ve practiced sharpening a saw in my shop, but I think I want to take one of those short 1-day courses offered at a lot of places. I find these sort of classes fun and the comradery is great.
Thanks for the post!
Is an 18″ saw really so hard to come by?
You can trim a few inches from most saws using tin-snips, and file it smooth. If its too tough, a hacksaw works as well.
Anyone want to buy a ‘rare’ Disston 18″ ?
I’m guessing you are in the USA by your first question so for those in the greater world, yes, they are hard to come by and especially the vintage models of the USA Disston’s reputable quality. I think too that most of us looking enjoy the search for authenticity as they are scarcer and not for something easy; we like the challenge. Tin snips distort the saw plate if indeed they will cut at all, which I doubt, so I advise against that suggestion and some of these saws have the nibbing on the end. Oh, and a hacksaw doesn’t work that well either.
Thanks for the info on building up a repair with superglue and sawdust. A new one to me and very intriuging.
Paul, I love my Diston backsaw for mortise and tenons.
Love to see a video of you cutting out a mortice with a backsaw?
The Pax saws I have are gommy but good quality. I like them.
Hi Paul, I think I once saw a video of you, on how to make a saw handle like the one on this saw, and how to fit that on your saw blade. Converting a cheap saw into a much better one. If I remember correctly the coverage even had a free sawing template for the handle. I searched but couldn’t find the video. Am I mistaken, and wasn’t that a subject handled by you?
I have an old saw blade which I want give a new handle.
Until now I have been using disposable saws, you know ‘two for £10’. These are generally ok but I recently chanced upon a friend’s tenon saw. It was ancient, probably as old as he but that saw was really sharp. Maybe I’ll venture into non-disposable saws when my cheap ones give out and become scrapers.
Hi Paul. I too had read somewhere that saw plates beyond use could be cut down for scrapers and had assumed it was on this blog. Knowing how hard the plate is to cut and having now finally got the veritas scrapers, I won’t attempt it but good to know you don’t recommend it.
I do have a number of nice older saws which have been used down to around 3/4 – 1” depth for the first few inches from the toe. They are beautifully made and I’ve been wary of using them in case I put a kink in the toe end with poor technique. Is it a good idea to cut off these first few inches to make a shorter saw with a more robust depth? I really don’t want to not use them.
I see nothing wrong with shortening them for this reason but definitely think its silly just to get a scraper you don’t know will work. I mean, a scraper costs £3 or less.
Dear Paul,
I just finished building a shaving horse! I got the inspiration from your comment, some time ago, that you gave your 3-5 year old sons spokeshaves and had them work wood.
I also read the first interview in Quercus magazine about you teaching trainers who work with ASC people. I would like to find out more about the charity you created/helped create in order t learn more about their work.
I have two adult special needs children; one has Down Syndrome and Autism. Wichita, KS, where we live, has a Down Syndrome society, and many gifted individuals who patiently teach special needs people.
Would you let me know about the charity you created?
Thank you so much, and God bless!