What’s Ordinary

I take old things made by artisans in past times and see things we never do now in our more advanced society and with more advanced equipment, machinery, guides and such. And people actually believe society to be more advanced, you know, but the ordinary of past made things pop out all the time to surprise me.

It’s a fine nail that didn’t split the wood 3/16″ thick and 5/16″ wide. Perhaps it’s the fineness of this smith’s work or the absorption of the wood or both but even half an inch from the end of so thin a section the wood retained its integrity as unsplit wood.

Well, it’s just a handmade nail, four-sided, blacksmithed in two blows to two faces by a man twisting the wrist of one hand to meet the hammer face held in another with some small heat and an anvil, after all. And then the handmade screws look different too. I look twice to what drew my eye, the slots hand cut, sawn and the threads unequal show the hand-madeness by a man maker who made the less perfect perfect by customising fits to settle matters of small discrepancy.

So glad I didn’t listen to the vastly knowledgeable out there who would now say not to use steel in mahogany because mahogany rusts the screws, causes the wood to rot, then split, then stain the blah, blah, blah. Colleges are the chief source of much erroneous information like this. All hearsay mostly. The nails did rust, rust in, wouldn’t pull with an easy pull but only pure determination released them from 200-year-old fastness.

The mixed variance would and should draw the eye of any artisan with soul. It’s not the perfection of the pieces but the perfection of the art in humanness. The bent nails came from my extracting pulls but see how rust affects all of some and only half of others.

But just look at the perfect and imperfect tapers of these square nails four-sided to needle-pointedness. Yes, the points broke off in the extraction and I bent them in the pulling, but they were very difficult to pull even with a stout pair of pliers and the bead they fastened in place was held good by them for two hundred years, you know. Anyway, they were ordinary in the day of their making and are now extraordinary in our day; such to the point that they held my gaze even though I know a friend blacksmith who could make such fine nails. So why did they not split the wood as do round nails, anyway? Well, perhaps it is because they were and are still extraordinary.

They have a slight bend to them, most of them. Probably from entering the wood fibres following the hole reamed by a square awl. And they vary in several ways and mostly length as an insignificant part of the maker’s goal and the economy of movement. This character of craft exemplifies the essence of art.

And the steel screws at first glance would be ignored if a cell phone was sat beside them even though barely any human hand touches a cell phone in the making. The screws are so plain and big by comparison with the amazing tiny micro-screws used to hold components in the handheld device. Of course, `i can be fascinated by both of the screws, the technology of 200 years ago and the technology of Chinese mass-made screws that never see a human hand even in the packaging and shipping. It was the discrepancy that held my gaze; my attention is always drawn by such things I know a human made in times past using, well, primitive methods and tools. So discrepancy drew me so to the work. All of the screws were different lengths and so too the threads in the screws varied. The slots in the screwheads were sawn in, off-centre in most and then to different depths as well. The depth from one side of the screw to the other was different too. On one side it might be 3mm deep and the other less than 1mm. So we see how the ordinary becomes extraordinary by the making and the man or the woman maker working in ways we know little of in the knowing ways of old. So tell me, who is it that you know that makes four-sided nails 10mm long to a perfect point using only their hands and a hammer?

The slots are mostly uncentered and vary in depth with every screw and sometimes the slot is shallow at about a millimetre and then as deep as three or four. See the tops of each screw filed to near flatness and look at the screw threads for imperfection at their cutting edges.

So the doors that held these nails and screws were in a skip at a wood centre where woodworkers worked making things from MDF they veneered with surfaces of veneered wood a thousandth thick and don’t you wonder when such a thing happened that good wood could be discarded so? People makers walking past the doors for several days ambivalent until I retrieved them for the wood. The man that discarded them made boats. Fine boats. But he saw no use for the wood. The panels from the doors are six feet long and half an inch thick vintage mahogany you can no longer legally buy because it was over-harvested and plundered by colonial endeavours in search of riches in the 1700-1800s. To these woodworkers, the work remained quite dull and boring and ultra-ordinary. To buy this quality of wood now, for panels of mahogany, 48 board feet of it, if it were possible, would be over £1,000. To have the doors made the way they were made with such exactness, by hand, though it no longer be possible, I think, would be four times that.

Who ever thought you’d find tooling marks in pointless woodscrews? They turned loose with the flat-head screwdriver once called a turnscrew. The rust on those screws showing rust remained confined to the threaded areas and the flat tops were rust-free too.

The hinges stopped at a fixed point to hold the door and stop it from folding back and the brass tapered to provide for the stop, you can see the shoulders right by the knuckle. We still make such hinges for £60 a pair of 2″ but they are more finely made though less by hand than these I’ve come to know.

The pin is steel, quite loose through wear but will likely hold good for 200 years more. Again, the brass is hand cut and saw and file marks are evident throughout.

I sliced through a mortise and tenon to retrieve my wood for my picture frames and the fineness of hand-cut mortises with gapless tenons fitted neatly inside. I’m hoping when someone cuts through mine in two hundred years they too will be as gapless and someone calls another to see and says ‘imagine that’.

Vintage mortises are not always exemplary of careful work but I have found it to be so in many works. like this. There was no wiggle room left for any movement between rails and stiles and this man could stake his reputation on his quest for integrity throughout his work.

The doors with arched tops held panels and the beads were heat-bent to conform to the bend but it was the pristineness of sections of wood all planed dead square, smooth and flawless in every stick and stem and the sizing was within the smallest fractions of exactness throughout each piece. This loveliness keeps my attention in the dismantling of the ordinary of its day into the extraordinariness of mine.

And here we see further integrity in the permanent bend through heating the wood to bend conformity into the fibres and remove enmity in all things. I admired several curves formed this way where the wood simply came to rest in the whole.

I write such things lest we miss that we too can train our bodies and minds to respond to the fine-tuning of all things made.

The small crack was expected as a possibility by the maker because there was no way to control humidity over two hundred years. But we see again his use of fineness to satisfy his architect and his customer either side of his work. In this image you can just see the darker spline, darker because of the end grain, that anchors the delicate short section of grain . . .
. . . and here see how very fine the workmanship in so thin an insertion.

There are small details that ensure longevity beyond the lives of many generations. Here where the rail sweeps in its curve to meet the stile, a small and thin insert caught the weakness as a plying of the thinner sections. This too becomes the extraordinary for me to contemplate and dwell on. I doubt that we will ever see sauch skilled cognisence in workmanship again.

And now, as a last, see how the bead was made to match the hinge to lose the hinge in the long line of the door stile. A perfect synchrony of all elements is the beauty in fine workmanship.

44 Comments

  1. Hand made screws had to be a real chunk of overhead, and not as readily available 200 years ago compared to today. I would imagine you would be very careful not to strip those heads.

    1. I was surprised at how neatly the screwdrivers fitted into the slots. Perhaps the crisp corners or the narrowness of the kerf allowed the taper of the flathead to grip the driver. Again, it made me realise that almost all screw slots in modern slotted screws are way too open and that is why they slip. We condemn slot heads these days but it is most likely because mass-makers actually never use them and don’t really know what their product should be like when they go out of date.

      1. My father worked on his own cars through his 70s. Now in his early 80s it’s too much for him. I recall him tell me in the 1970s that every engineer and designer of a car should have to spend two weeks a year working on the floor assembling cars as it would without question lead to better designs. There were plenty of examples he used to point out where a bad design decision made a job much harder to do on the engine.

        1. I agree with your Dad, Joe. But it’s not limited to cars. Even today after half a century as a mechanical engineer I meet constantly with design compromises. Sometimes the better designers will do their best to minimise the impact and it shows, but usually the main driver is cost reduction.
          My Old Man said everyone who aspired to a driving licence should have to pass an exam demonstrating at least a basic understanding of how the thing worked, for reasons of safety if nothing else.

          1. Thank you Paul for some very insightful observations. Sometimes I find an old piece of furniture at a yard sale or a thrift store and I may pick it up and restore it. Or going to an antique store just to look at the craftsmanship that is found in the furniture there. I have seen many things that have been impressed with. Sometimes the workmanship is readily apparent. Other times you have to look for it. I have your books and videos and have watched your videos on line for years. I can’t thank you enough for the efforts you are making to share your knowledge with us all! Posts like this are excellent teaching tools and this one will help me to have a better understanding of what I see in the future. May you have many more years of teaching and sharing with us all!

        2. Your dad was absolutely right. No automotive engineer should be permitted to design systems he isn’t required to repair.

          1. I know for a fact that car manufacturers had special shops where repaires like changing a belt or replacing wheel bearings were performed and the times recorded. this even went for body parts replacement. these times are what was used to develop estimate books.
            also I was taught how to gas solder and weld on aluminum body panels as the march for weight savings was in high gear.

          2. Absolutely. My car has developed an oil leak through the sump gasket, something this model is known for. The gasket is just a few quid but to replace it everything has to be disconnected from the subframe which needs to be lowered resulting in a bill running into hundreds.

          3. I agree with RS Hughes; I don’t think that the designers can be blamed here. They are, afterall, merely working to a brief.

            Keeping costs low is all that matters. Most cars are now assembled with components bought from other manufacturers; these are already assembled and just bolted on. There is no consideration of ease of repair because that is not in the design brief. Hence the need, in some cases, to remove body panels to change headlight bulbs. In my current car, the rear washer tube blocked; it was found to be the T connector which was halfway between two holes in the spoiler. If it had been adjacent to one of these holes, I could have done the job in 5 minutes; because it wasn’t, it took the garage over an hour.

            But now, let’s get back to celebrating hand made furniture!!!

  2. Thank you for pointing these things out to us. Like you, I appreciate the value of handwork but do not have much occasion to observe it. Or perhaps, I don’t take the time to look for it. Thus, I become even more appreciative of those who do. Again, thank you from Texas.

    1. Just a thought; Charles Eames once gave a lecture entitled “The New Covetables”. It is available on the Eames Office YouTube channel, but it has been renamed “Goods”. It’s easy enough to find.

      It was made in 1971, I think, and describes and extols raw materials, components and the traditional ways of storing them that had started to disappear.

      A keg of nails and a cord of wood get a mention towards the end, but the rest is worth watching too!

  3. It is a sad thing that old furniture has no market anymore.
    On the other side, there is an opportunity to harvest old/dry, not-available wood for those of us who don’t want to transform their houses in a laboratory/hospital/office/anonymous hotel room…

    Furniture is to fill the space, while built-ins are to make it look empty (while making the room look small, because they are made from floor to ceiling). They are two opposite concepts.

    The verb “meubler” (putting furniture in a room or a house) in French can also be used in expressions like “meubler la conversation” (keep the conversation going).

    While built-in supplier put forward in their advertisement the de-cluttering of the space , it is interesting to see that, in the well known Swedish firm catalog, they skillfully clutter the space to make the space look like a real life family space. Otherwise, they “furniture” would probably just look boring.

  4. inspiring post! current project is matching 175 year old door mouldings with various planes. no dust, no noise. shopmates can’t understand why I don’t use a router. bees don’t bother telling flies…

  5. I remember using ‘cut’ nails in carpentry work in London in the 1960’s , all the strip flooring was nailed down with these nails . I was a musician trying to make a living and carpentry kept my head above the poverty line ! I find the handmade nails and screws in Paul’s photos to be things of beauty .

    1. Here in Northern California we have an old town that was built in the mid 1800s gold rush. it has been a State Park for well over 50 years. when they make repairs they try and stay within the bounds of the original builders. I was there one day and was watching a carpentry crew replace boards on a raised boardwalk. they were using Hand Cut nails as these were what they had in 1850.

  6. Somebody just gave me a beaten up old blanket chest. Only turned out to be made from 15 inch by 3/4 inch mahogany boards, soon to be a very nice tool chest! Nowhere locally could sell me anything but firewood to make one from scratch!

  7. Really nice post Paul, much appreciated. It seems that we measure advancement, when it comes most things, in ability to produce an abundance of whatever item in the quickest time possible. I’m not sure that’s an adequate measure. Is an abundance of furniture really an advance? Or a waste? I’m not sure. Do we take into account “skills lost” when measuring our advancement? I can “feel square”, for the most part, when I’m planing an edge, which is just amazing to me, as I’ve no idea how it happens! It’s just a skill learned from practice. What I can’t do is name a hundred species of plant and know instinctively when to pick them for the best taste, yet humans everywhere did (and do) this for their whole lives. Is a supermarket progress over this inate skill? I’m not sure. People are concerned about the continued automation of life, yet we don’t look back the way and discuss what has already been automated for most of us. Whilst we can’t all do everything, it does strike me that in our siloed society, where each person is a “specialist” in one thing (office worker, insurance broker etc), we relegate a lot of far greater experiences, skills and feelings, which leaves me thinking that advance and progress are somewhat ill-measured and nebulous terms. Good news though Paul, now that we have a machine language learning model available, you can simply ask a computer to write your next blog about plough planes in the style of Paul Sellers, whilst you stare at your phone or whatever we’re supposed to do these days!

    1. Most proponents of AI use manual work as good reason to replace people with automation governed by AI. The scientist told me that the person who empties the rubbish bins and drives the truck will soon be replaced altogether and cites this as progressive. “After all, it frees the person up from the mundane tasks of life to do better things with their life’ they reason. I don’t look at life that way. A man I know picks litter for his living and he does the very finest work of anyone I know. He purposely goes out of his way to get the last and most minor pieces. He talks to me of how he has crafted the work. This attitude is remarkable.

      1. ” “After all, it frees the person up from the mundane tasks of life to do better things with their life’ they reason. ”
        In 1962 a French sociologue wrote a book “Vers une civilisation du loisir?” [Toward a civilization of leisure?]. Well it didn’t happen.

        Instead of having more free time to learn how to play music, how to draw, gardening or any other creative activity like woodworking, people still “must” work (except the happy few who touch a percentage on others’ work, of course).
        And what do we use our hard won money for? To buy music made by others, to buy plane tickets, hotel rooms, Netflix and so on.
        Leisure is just another business.

        1. Funny thing though: when the series season(s) are “binged” and consumed, we try to find another series to entertain us in our free time. And if the show won’t engage me, I find myself half-watching it while I play a simple puzzle game on my phone.

          In the shop I can focus on the task at hand. My brain takes off to some Narnia place I don’t know while I work. Afterwards, I feel refreshed. Even if I’ve done something that is a bit physically demanding, I feel refreshed. That never happens while Netflix is on.
          I also get the same refreshing feeling when I’m working in the garden or doing projects on our property. A hard days work of mixing concrete and building a retainer wall – physically exhausted, mentally honed!

          The result of “but it is so much easier with this gadget, machine – or robot” -mentality is boredom. I am being relieved of a task so that I can be bored. I did not ask for that.

          Engineers should stop trying to remove the man, and in stead work hard on how to make the man’s job easier – if that is at all possible. But the man should be consulted about the matter! It might just be easier to just whizz the hand plane over the edge than to go get an edge chamfer gizmo you need three different allen keys to set up!

          1. It seems common when watching workmen and holes that several are standing around whilst one is actually doing the work, often with the interjection from a machine.
            Once I was watching this progress whilst sat in a cafe and was convinced that I could do the job just as fast with just hand tools. I am not sure why 6 people needed to stand around watching.

      2. Oh, thank goodness, AI will give us time to sit back and relax. AI by the sounds of the experts will fix all our problems and woes. Sorry, but I’m NOT convinced…

      3. You can transform any job into more of a calling by attitude and reframing what you doing, though it can go to extremes.

        Pete the Pigman, our local curmudgeon, made a fortune on raising swine for meat. He always came off the farm to the diner bragging about his money. He would whip out a worn out wallet fat with hundred-dollar bills. After forty years mucking out his hogs he transformed into a pig himself. His nose looked like a great, gray-haired snout. He was portly with a big saggy belly. He even had the faint smell of his favorite food: smoked bacon. Even his plump wife squealed with delight at his lame jokes. He used to poke my round belly and tell me how fat I was.

        Piggies were his calling. He loved the pigs more than his wife who was, no lie, having an affair with a gentleman at the diner everyone called Hot Dog. After he slaughtered his last hog, he went into a deep depression. Not having pigs was the meaning of life for him. He almost went to the great deli house in the sky.

        Oui, oui, oui all the way home.

        1. The history of nails is rather fascinating, there’s an article here which explains much of it.

          http://www.glasgowsteelnail.com/nailmaking.htm

          Mass production has lead to affordability for the masses. Artisan manufacturing meant many things were only accessible to the wealthy, There is a limit though and shoddily made stuff that falls apart quickly and needs replacing is false economy and environmentally unsustainable.

      4. The “frees the person …” sounds really nice until they need to buy groceries. I ran a crew of juvenile delinquents one summer who had been tasked with community service. I was hired as a foreman by the Public Guardian’s Office. Their job was to pick up litter. The area they needed to deal with was around 100 yards wide, and a mile long. It was remarkable to watch as they developed a sense of pride in their work. Initially there was whining (in Britain I believe you say “whinging”), but even after the first day, they could look back and see the difference between where they had been and where they were going. Their fury when some motorist passed by an tossed trash out the car window was also a new feeling for them.

    2. I asked ChatGP to “write a blog about plough planes in the style of Paul Sellers”.

      This AI bot has got nothing on Mr Sellers! – very bland response, indeed. I much prefer the writings and wisdom of the real thing 🙂

      “Plough planes are one of the most versatile and essential tools in any woodworker’s arsenal. These planes have been in use for centuries and are still widely used today because of their ability to cut grooves and rabbets with incredible accuracy.

      As a woodworker myself, I can tell you that the plough plane is one of my favorite tools. It allows me to make precise cuts that are difficult to achieve with other hand tools or power tools. In this blog post, I will discuss the history and usage of plough planes and explain why they are an essential tool for any woodworker.

      History of Plough Planes

      Plough planes were first developed in the 17th century and were used primarily for creating grooves in wooden boards for joining them together. The name “plough” comes from the fact that the plane was designed to cut a narrow furrow in the wood, much like a plough would in a field. Early plough planes were made of wood and had a metal blade that could be adjusted for depth and width.

      As technology advanced, plough planes were eventually made with cast iron bodies and were equipped with a range of different blades to allow for various groove widths. By the 19th century, plough planes had become a staple tool in the woodworking industry.

      Usage of Plough Planes

      Plough planes are commonly used to cut grooves and rabbets in wood, which are essential for creating strong and stable joints. They can also be used for decorative purposes, such as creating fluted designs or beaded edges.

      One of the unique features of a plough plane is its ability to cut grooves to a consistent depth and width. This is achieved by adjusting the blade depth and width using a depth stop and a fence, respectively. The depth stop allows the user to control the depth of the cut, while the fence keeps the blade aligned to create a straight groove.

      Plough planes are available in a range of sizes and designs, from small hand-held models to larger, more complex models that require a workbench for use. Some models also have interchangeable blades to allow for greater versatility.

      Why Plough Planes are Essential

      Plough planes are an essential tool for any woodworker because they allow for precise cuts that are difficult to achieve with other tools. They are also incredibly versatile, making them useful for a wide range of woodworking tasks.

      Additionally, plough planes offer several benefits over other cutting tools. For example, a plough plane can cut a groove to a precise depth without the risk of tearing out the wood fibers. This is especially important when creating joints, as a clean, straight groove is essential for a strong joint.

      Conclusion

      In conclusion, plough planes are an essential tool for any woodworker. They offer precise, consistent cuts that are difficult to achieve with other tools and are incredibly versatile, making them useful for a wide range of woodworking tasks. Whether you are a beginner or an experienced woodworker, a plough plane is a tool that should not be overlooked.”

      1. Dear Adam,

        What we call artificial intelligence is nothing more than a large, enormous amount of data stored in large data banks and ultra-high-speed computation, with no soul or self-consciousness! A computer is just a baby which learns what is fed and nothing more!

        Regarding those screws, I would like to know how they where made. Where they heated up and then rolled over a type of stamp?

        Regards,
        Joseph

      2. Sorry, Adam!

        My plagiarism checker suggests that this AI essay is plagiarised!

        86.8% identical wording, 13.2% minor changes.

        Better off sticking with the original Mr. Sellers, I say!

  8. It is unfortunate that there is a commonality in many countries still with discarding perfectly good material. This occurs here irrespective of the economic conditions at play as it is not ‘cost effective’. When we had a brick shortage builders still lobbed unused leaves of bricks into bins. Now that the harvesting of native hardwoods is drawing to a close I still see it in bins, I can only retrieve so much.It is slowly getting better but much of the reuse, recycle policy is lowest denominator in practise as wood is chipped or burned or if too hard to process due to contaminants, buried. It is as if the once common usage of wood for the manufacturing of objects, other than housing, is not part of the knowledge base anymore in mainstream society. I am glad you spotted the mahogany and it has not gone to waste.

  9. The difference in length of the screws might just be that the points were cropped off by hand?

  10. I’m reminded that as a boy in the sixties I found a box of screws in a drawer that were hand made from some hardwood. Lignum Vitae possibly?
    The old gentleman they belonged to told me that they were made for coffin-makers and that the thick heads were intended to be planed off flat after installing.
    I’ve never seen any since and I’ve never been able to verify the story. Has anyone else any knowledge about them?
    Just curious…

    1. Excuse me – I just remembered he said the wooden screws were used by surgeons as well.

  11. When I assembled my Anarchist’s Toolchest years ago ( a boatload of dovetails being required, and soon enjoined), I attached the bottom slats, as instructed, using hand-cut nails.
    Expensive to acquire, but a joy in the using.
    I had previously picked up a dozen or so, randomly from the ground, over the years, straightened them, and kept them in a jar with a few drops of oil, hoping to have a purpose. They still reside there, as I needed far more for the Toolchest another box.
    The blunt tips punched their way through the wood without splitting same and the assembled joint was destined to last for centuries.
    Not everything new is better.
    Don

  12. I would guess that both the nails and the screws were made from wrought iron instead of steel. It was much cheaper in the days of flat tipped screws and forged nails than steel, which was reserved for things such as the cutting edges of tools. Wrought iron does not harden, but is tough and more rust resistant than steel. Nice save!

  13. I’m in the process of cleaning up a door ready for rehanging. It’s at least 200 years old and has been repurposed several times over judging by the number of holes etc. When finished it will probably last another couple of centuries. Where did we go wrong?
    Seems to me that ‘progress’ is measured in cash terms by those who gain and the skills and livelihoods lost are not measured at all.
    Everything is ‘supermarketed’ – pile it high, sell it cheap!

  14. Your thoughts and observations remind me of a recent experience at our local recycling centre when I was fortunate enough to be there just as someone was in the process of dumping sections of an old Welsh sideboard that was part of a house clearance. I asked if he minded that I took all that looked reusable and he was pleased that the it could be used for new projects. Apart from acquiring useful pieces of oak and mahogany, I couldn’t help but think about the craftsmen who had made and the used the screws and hinges, which I have kept and will use in a future project.
    The pieces of oak that have now been cleaned up are to be used as part of the bread stow project.

  15. One of the many joys of my job as a glazier was to replace the glass in the curved shopfront of a local chemist.
    The entire shop was fitted out in mahogany, shelves, cupboards, doors and the actual shop front.
    It was magnificent.
    There were very few screws or nails in its construction.
    The whole assembly came apart like a puzzle.
    Once you found the key piece each section then lifted out.
    Each piece perfectly cut, planed and moulded. Dentil friezes all in step adorned the street side, while the interior of the display area had screens in the most precise fine 3/8 and 1/4 astragal beading.
    We kept a precise template of the internal curve of the plate glass, which had to be made each time it got damaged by sagging the plate over a plaster former.

    Eventually their insurers stopped their cover and the proprietors had to pay the full price, not cheap as there was only one glass works that could handle such a large plate.
    One day in the future a new owner will have it all ripped out and a soulless aluminium front will replace it.

  16. Great post. The people who discarded those doors are not worthy of possessing them. I’m glad Paul was able to rescue them from a landfill and give the materials new life. I hope Paul posts pictures of the final product whatever it is.

    Apologies for joining the AI discussion so late. All such discourse reminds me of the 1970 film Colossus The Forbin Project. I won’t spoil the plot or its outcome for the those who wish to watch/ rewatch. However, the film’s relevance to our current debate re AI is uncanny.

    Looking forward to Paul’s next post…

    1. I remember a multi frame comic from somewhere, years back, 60’s or 70’s maybe.
      Frame 1 Scientists talking about the capabilities of their new mainframe computer in the background. All the questions they can answer.
      Frame 2 Scientist officially asking computer, “Is there a GOD?”.
      Frame 3 Lightning bolt hitting the OFF switch for the computer.
      Frame 4 Computer replies “There is now!”
      AI conversation reminded me of it and it seemed appropriate for today.

  17. As we know there is a difference between the tool and what is produced by the tool.
    Sounds evident, isn’t it?
    ChatGPT uses Artificial Intelligence to produce a discourse.
    But the discourse itself is not intelligent.
    ChatGPT has no idea what it is speaking about.

    ChatGPT analyses what can be read on the web to make its discourse. It will in no time use its own production as a source (e.g. the text Adam has obtained from it about plough planes). Going in circles.

    I heard this morning, at the radio, that when one has an ongoing suicidal conversation with ChatGP, it first try to discourage it but after a while will encourage it.

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